Hey, everybody, I’m Andrea Sieminski, and this is the Hindsight’s 2020 podcast. On this episode, my friend Kim Karant and I will get real about letting go of our OCD tendencies, figuring out self care in order to prioritize ourselves and our community. And the silver linings, that 2020 offered up. Hey, Kim, thanks for being here today. I’ll let you go ahead and introduce yourself.
Hi, Andrea. I am so glad to be here with you also. My name is Kim. I live in New York. I am a mom of three amazing humans who are making their way in the world. They’ve mostly flown the coop. But I think I’ve done something right because they’re doing pretty good out there in life. I’ve been married for 20 plus years and for a career, I buy candy and snacks by trade and, from my heart, I’m an accountability coach as well.
That is awesome. Well, welcome and thank you for being here. A little known fact, Kim….when I lived in New York City, I was an assistant buyer at Macy’s and Lord and Taylor!
That’s amazing!
So I totally understand. I mean, I didn’t get to buy anything as fun as candy and snacks, but that’s great. That’s so fun! So your kids are mostly grown and flown — during the pandemic — a lot of people ended up back at home. I don’t know if they’re – if you have any college age kids, did they come home and start doing some school? And what was that like in your household?
Yeah. So when the pandemic first hit, my son was a — my youngest son was a senior in high school, heartbroken that he was about everything that he had waited his entire school career for, as so many of the kids were going through prom and no senior dinner and all of the things that the kids look forward to, especially graduation. So there was a whole roller coaster of emotions going on with him, which was something none of us were expecting. And my daughter was 20 and she was working in retail. So everything shut down for her as well. So she was home with me 24/7. And my oldest son, who was 28 at the time, had just started a new job in Manhattan and literally three weeks before. And all of the sudden we have this stay at home order and he’s not sure whether he’s going to continue to have a job being the new guy or, or not. And he had given up another great job for this one. So there was so much emotion built up in my house at that time that it was it was certainly interesting.
And then as we got into this a little further, my my youngest was was starting college in the fall and we had no idea if it was going to happen. So that was a really, really stressful situation to go through. Everybody’s emotions were were high and day by day you’d dig for information to see what would happen. And eventually he left the nest and he went off to school in August. And for the most part, he had some in-person classes. He goes to school in Florida. And Florida is a little bit different than here in New York. And he had some zoom classes as well. So it was a different type of a freshman year at college. But he has flourished and is doing amazing. And we just heard next year will be all in person. So we’re really excited.
Oh, that’s amazing! Oh, congratulations! I think I remember talking to you towards the end of the summer and you were like, “we think he’s going to go,,,we think he’s going to go”. So that’s wonderful. These kids are resilient and their ability to be malleable has really impressed me.
So your eldest, who was living in Manhattan, who had gotten the new job, what was that like? I mean, Manhattan really got hit hard. You know, we were watching the news coverage out here in California. And I just, I can’t imagine just — not only the emotions of, OK, am I going to still have a job, you know, just living in the city at that time or did he come home to your house?
He actually had never left living at home, he was here when the pandemic started. He had just taken a job in Manhattan for the first time. He’d been working on Long Island prior to that. So there was the commute involved and taking a train every day. And once everything closed down, it became kind of eerie in the city. So we were thankful that he had the opportunity to work from home and not not have to worry about having an apartment there or anything like that. We got lucky.
Yeah, that is lucky. So you had all your chickadees at home?
I did. I did. Yeah, and everything to come out of the pandemic. That’s my silver lining. I had this incredible amount of time with all three of my grown children for what might be the last time ever having them all together like that. We had meals together every day and we had time to talk every day because we couldn’t do anything else. So we had this opportunity that we never would have had Covid not happened. I almost feel guilty saying that. But to some degree it was a blessing in disguise for me.
No 100%. That’s what this (podcast) is sort of about, because I feel like when we were in it, for a lot of us, it was really difficult. But I think now that we’re emerging and we can kind of look back and find the beauty and the silver linings in what happened. So — and I do — I feel like kids your kids’ age or young adults actually had it really hard, you know, maybe even harder than toddlers. Right. Because like you said, your your son, who is in high school, he knew what he was missing. And so I think that it is really nice to be able to look back and reframe it as like this was a blessing in disguise and it’s going to be OK and we wouldn’t have had this otherwise. So I think that’s really nice and beautiful.
Exactly. And I think so many parents were hung up, myself included, when this all was happening to us and to them with the graduation and the prom and whatnot. We were all trying to figure out ways that we could make that happen later and just create something for them. And at the end of the day, we never had to do that. It just kind of worked itself out. And like you said, these kids are resilient. And even though they were frustrated and they were upset and heartbroken in many cases, that they miss these things that are almost a rite of passage, they came through it on the other side and I think they learned humility and they learned, you know, you can’t get everything you want and nothing in life is is a guarantee. They learned some really important lessons.
100%. Well, 2020 was a year that was really difficult for so many people, for so many different reasons and so many different ways, and I think many of us turn to really unhealthy habits and crutches. In the beginning, I totally indulged in the flatten the curve, fatten the belly, you know, eating all the things was fun. Baking and eating, drinking all the wine seemed totally fine. Right? These are unprecedented times. So we all justified it. Like surely we get a pass on day drinking. But as the weeks went on and on, I think we all realized, OK, this is not sustainable. We have to reprioritize ourselves. And I think eventually everyone started shifting, adjusting and recalibrating because we realized this is a marathon, not a race. And I’d love to hear about your personal experience in this and and how your work as an accountability coach and what that means and how you helped others navigate through these crazy times and possible self-destructive behavior.
Right. And that was such a struggle in my own mind when this first happened, because here I am completely in a panic myself and not really sure what’s going to happen and for how long. And I have these clients that are relying on me for support and I have my family that’s relying on me for support and I have my business that was going crazy because everybody was trying to stock up in panic buy. So there was a lot going on. But having gone through my own lifestyle shift back in 2017 and early 2018, I really had this great foundation in place. So when it came to my health and my body, I knew what I needed to do to stay healthy and fit. And with that still, there were so many obstacles. I mean, you couldn’t go grocery shopping like we were all used to doing. The gyms were closed and people were even afraid to go outside in some cases, You know, I would go to the boardwalk to take a walk and, and people were afraid to walk anywhere near you because nobody knew if the wind would carry a virus if someone was carrying it. So there were so many things that were just uncertain.
And, you know, even grocery shopping. I mean, let’s talk about that for a second. So here I am promoting to my clients to eat healthy and fresh produce and fresh vegetables and lean proteins. And now all of a sudden, there’s a shortage of all of these things. So people were rightly confused about what they needed to do. So it became a little bit of a balancing act. It was a shift for me as well, because I had to change how I was coaching people, how I was supporting people and getting them through to find alternatives that were going to work for them. And so many people would say to me, “well, I can’t go to the grocery store, so I can’t do this. I need to stop the program. I just need to do what feels right to me right now.”
And it sometimes required a little bit of tough love saying to them, “what is right for you is being healthy and taking care of yourself. And just because we can’t go out and buy the fresh bananas or the fresh strawberries and get all of the fresh leafy greens that we want to have, we can still do this.” So we developed lists of items that they could use. Maybe they wouldn’t be considered ideal, you know, on a menu plan for wellness to some people using canned fruits and canned veggies and, you know, all sorts of things that people had on hand at home. But we made it work and it was getting everybody in the same mindset that we couldn’t just give up on ourselves because of the state of the world.
We had to go on and accountability became such an important and integral part of everyday life for so many. I had clients that were just ready to give up on themselves. And I understood I was feeling some of the same things, but I had people relying on me to get them through it.
So we should back up and kind of give an overview of what your work is, an accountability coach entails, so who are you working with and what are sort of the goals of working with them?
So generally someone who seeks out an accountability coach, you know, there could be different reasons for it. The number one reason people will reach out for it is because they’re looking to lose some weight because they don’t know how to make time for themselves. They need guidance on how to balance. And balance is my favorite word when it comes to accountability. But we’ll get into that later. People need – they need help. They need support. Even as a coach myself, I reach out to my coach from when I did my program way back when I need a refresh. And sometimes we all need that. So laying things out for people and being there to answer their questions and offer them support and cheerleading along the way is so helpful. There was such a negative vibe overall in the country because nobody knew what was going to happen. And, you know, my morning message to somebody was always about positivity, looking for the silver lining. What’s your why? Because those core values of of why you wanted to make a change didn’t change just because of a pandemic. Pandemic became an excuse for many people. And the ones who were successful through it were the ones that had the support and felt that they could power through. It’s hard to explain. I’m sorry.
I mean, I think what you really do is you empower people to love themselves again and to put themselves first. And like you said, you know, people forget to carve out time for themselves. And I think you help reshape the way we think. I mean, I should say you were my coach. We worked together. You helped me twice over the years. I think we met maybe three years ago. And I would say for certain, that’s what you did for me. You sort of reminded me that I should be at the top of my list because I can’t really help anybody else unless I’m, I’m helping myself and feel good about myself.
Absolutely. And accepting ourselves for what we are. Letting go of unrealistic ideas of perfection, whether it’s in our careers, in our family lives, in our body image. We just need to let those things go and go with the flow. We have to accept that the ultimate goal in our life is to find balance, practice self care. So many women just don’t take that time for themselves every day, whether it’s five minutes or an hour. You just need to find the time to take care of yourself. And deeper than that, to really love yourself because if you can’t find that spark that ignites our own lives from within. We can’t shine for anyone else. We can’t take care of the ones that we love. So it’s so important for women especially and for men as well. But I do work primarily with women. And I think that especially in this day and age, with so many working women, we just lose ourselves after we have children and families. And there’s just so much going on that someone just kind of needs to remind us from time to time that we’re important too.
Yeah. And throw in a pandemic. I mean, everyone. So now you’ve got children at home, you’re trying to work from home. And I do think, maybe I’m generalizing (although I don’t think I am!), but a lot of the extra work fell on women in the home, especially if you have kids or pets. So if last year taught me anything, it’s that, you know what you’re just talking to, I had unrealistic ideals of perfection for myself. I had just launched a consulting business, but then everything shut down and I went into the role of caretaker for my children. And I had days, quite honestly, where I was resentful because I wasn’t getting time to work on this new business that I had just launched. And then I felt horrible because I’m like,”these are my children!” And I shouldn’t be angry that I get this time with them, right? And like you were saying, it was a blessing in disguise, which I see now. But at the time I was like a teeter totter of emotion. At the beginning of the pandemic, I was a hot mess. I’m not going to lie to you. I was a hot mess and I just couldn’t see a way through it. I just had some days where I was like, ugh!
You were not alone.
I don’t want to put on that mask, the airplane mask. I just want to go to the back of the plane, get in the bathroom, lock the door and deny that any of this is happening.
Absolutely. And you know what I have to say, and that’s one thing that I can’t speak to because I didn’t have the experience. But so, so many people that I know did. And I give the moms of young children so much credit, I cannot even imagine what it must have been like to have to become not only the mom, the cook, the cleaner and the teacher, all while trying to balance whether you work inside the home or outside the home. Now you have people around you twenty four hours a day and everybody needs mom. My husband needed me, my kids, my cats needed me and my clients needed me. My boss. You know what? He kind of fell by the wayside sometimes because luckily he was the one that couldn’t see me.
But I also found I — and so many people have said the same thing — I worked nonstop. I would get up at 5:00 in the morning and I wouldn’t leave my home office until 9:00 at night. So through it all, we all figured out how to make it work. But I am totally with you. And there were days that I would go down in my basement and close the door and just hide in the dark. Because nobody knew I was there.
Yes! See this is what this podcast is all about! We all — it’s just it’s so nice to know that you hid — I hid in the bathroom and a goldfish by myself, I want to eat a snack by myself. So I thank you for sharing that because we all did it. And it just feels so good to normalize the fact that we needed to do it. And in that moment, you were practicing self care, I have to tell you.
Oh, absolutely! Absolutely! And the days when when I finally wasn’t afraid to walk outside and take a walk in the sunlight, to me that may sound crazy, but that was my self care just feeling the fresh air and the sunlight hit my skin.
Yeah.
It was almost like being a plant and being reborn each spring. It was such a good feeling and that was my, my time. Nobody else was with me. Like, if my daughter wanted to go for that walk, more often than not, I would try to sneak out while she was still asleep because I relished that time alone.
Yes. The quiet.
Yes. Yes.
You kind of mentioned basically you had a lot of people with needs who were turning to you, your own family, work, all of your clients. And for me, I wouldn’t have been able to weather the storm of 2020 without my various different communities. Right. So I, you know, I’ve got my preschool parent friend community. I had sort of this accountability community and just various communities who stepped up and showed up in different ways. Some were local, some were distributed across the country and world. And just, I think all of us really leaned into that to help one another. So I would love to hear about — sort of how that played out for you and how you showed up for other people and how people showed up for you to help you as well.
Yeah, so I would say one hundred percent community was so important because I think so many of us were not used to having daily human contact with others outside of our families. So my girlfriends saved me when they suggested doing Zoom cocktail nights. Even if they happened at 11:30 at night when everybody’s kids went to sleep and people were able to shut down their computers at night. Just finding that half an hour, once a week to get together with people and talk about how we were feeling was so vitally important because it made you feel that you weren’t the only one. And there were more tears and laughter shared during those nights than even on some girls weekends that I’ve had in person because everyone was so raw and so willing to just open up and share.
Yeah.
And then I had the accountability community and so many people came together, so many coaches, so many clients just being open and raw and willing to say this is what I need. And they came together and they found ways to make things happen. So we talked about gyms being closed and not being able to to get workouts in. And somebody said, “well, you know what? I’ll host a live zone workout. We can put it on Instagram and everybody can join.” And another one of the girls said, “you know what? I love my peloton and we all have access to this, you know, so let’s hop on a ride together.” And we found ways to make things feel like they weren’t so unusual, like they weren’t impossible with a pandemic going on. And, you know, it was just a way to connect with other people that made things feel a little bit normal and just connect.
Yeah. And I I think relationships were deepened because, like you said, people were raw. And when my girlfriends and I were admitting to each other like that, we were struggling with whatever, like parenting, you know, like, “oh, is my toddler going to have to go to years of therapy for like the days that I showed up and was crabby and cranky and yelled at them when they didn’t deserve to be yelled at?” and just letting that out, it deepened the friendship and the relationship. And that’s just another beautiful thing that came out of it. And like you were saying, the creativity of, “OK, we have to figure out something here.” So it’s almost, um, what’s that saying out of necessity comes invention or something like that?
Absolutely. And people found ways to make life livable, whether it was in person or across the miles, being able to, like I said, do those workouts with a friend in California. It made life seem a little bit more livable. You know, that’s something we weren’t even doing before the pandemic. And now it’s something we do on a weekly basis.
That raises a really interesting question for me. And I ask a lot of guests this: things that you didn’t think of before and kind of just came into being in this past year because we all had to figure it out — what are some of the things that you want to see stay in your life or in your communities and like this change was for the better and when we go back to, quote unquote the new normal, I guess, that you don’t want to have fall by the wayside and you want to keep up.
Absolutely. For me, it’s going to be my weekly check ins with with girlfriends that, you know, for a long time we always spoke, you know, sporadically via text. We weren’t doing even phone calls a lot of times. And it was just whenever we got together, whenever we had a chance to text and, “hey, how you doing?” You know, it was OK. And we always use the excuse. “Well, our friendship is so great. We can not talk for months and just pick up where we left off.” This taught me how important it is to pick up the phone and hear somebody’s voice, something that seemed so insignificant for so many years.
Yeah.
It is truly the greatest gift. So I would say now several times a month, I just do check ins with people and it’s something that I will never stop doing. I used to hate the telephone. I don’t like to talk on the phone at all, but now it’s part of my routine and even if I don’t feel like doing it, I reach out because that human contact can make the difference in someone’s day, even if you don’t know it.
That’s so true. Just reprioritizing human connection.
I mean, I can’t tell you how many times somebody has picked up the phone and called me and I would never even tell them. But hearing their voice just flip the script for me on that particular day, I could have been having a really, really rough day and just hearing and knowing that somebody reached out to me and cared enough to do that.
That’s amazing. So true. What other silver linings came out of 2020 for you? You had all this family time. Is there anything else for you personally?
I think I have learned to just take a step back and accept that I cannot control everything in life. I have major OCD. I always have. And if things aren’t going according to my plan, it kind of throws me off. And I found that just going with the flow is OK. I don’t have to have a to do list every single day. I also don’t have to finish everything that is on a list if I do make one, because guess what, it’ll be waiting for me tomorrow, both at home and at work. And since they have adapted to that way of thinking, I have so much less stress in my life and so much more joy.
That’s incredible. I feel like I learned the same lesson now that we’re a year plus in – I sometimes gravitate back towards my OCD controlling manners. But it took me a few weeks in to really just let go of the reins and it was an immediate shift. I was so much happier and I had so much less anxiety when I was like, ‘we’re just going to wake up and we’re going to have fun today.’ I don’t care about zoom school. I don’t care if you can write your letters. You’re still going to go to college one day, you know? And I just let go of like this death grip that I had on a schedule and forcing it on everybody. And it was night and day. And when I decided to have fun with it, that’s when everything just felt lighter.
Yeah, it benefits everybody around you. Something as simple as dishes in the sink, like I cannot stand dirty dishes in the sink. And, you know, with three older children that know better, I’m like, there’s a dishwasher right there, like, open it up and put the glass in the dishwasher. And it was this crazy OCD thing I had. But at the end of the day, like, did it really matter if the dishes in the sink or in the dishwasher? No. And once I let go of that, there was less tension in the house. And guess what? Everybody kind of started doing what they needed to do. It was almost like they weren’t doing what I wanted them to do just to get a rise out of me.
Oh, my gosh. Well, I also like to play — it’s like a winding down fun thing for the podcast — I like to play a little bit of Rose & Thorn. And I think that we probably talked about a lot of the roses. Were there any thorns for you this past year?
That’s a tough one. I’m sure there were.
See! You’re just you’re you’re the perfect person to be doing your job because you reframe everything in such a positive way. So I love that you can think of a thorn.
Well, I mean, there were so many that — that I think I’ve just let go of. I mean, like I said, there was so much going on with my with my youngest son around this time of his life that was supposed to be special and it wasn’t and there was so much negativity around it when it first started, but, you know, we all found that we got through it. So that kind of I think that taught me so much.
Yeah, you can’t stay in that negativity. It just it’s not good.
Yeah, but I mean, the one thing that I did learn is that left to my own devices, I am a workaholic and I will never I will never leave something for the next day if I don’t have to. And I was putting it way, way, way too many hours. So I have learned now that I’m back at the office most days that when I leave, I’m done for the day. But it was an issue it was thorn during during the time I was at home because I was not.
There was no delineation.
No, there wasn’t. And I know a lot of people were facing that. So for me, that was probably the biggest thing. Because everything else that kind of came out of it, I was very fortunate, I didn’t, I didn’t lose anyone to the virus. I didn’t have anyone close to me become really ill. And thankfully, my family was all healthy through it, probably in part due to my OCD. But so we were really, really lucky. And I think, like I said, the worst thing that came out of it for me was working too much. But that’s not the worst thing in the world right now.
But I’m sure a lot of people can relate to that.
Absolutely.
Let me ask you a question. So I didn’t realize you’re back at work most days. How has that been? How does that feel? I know when I think about reentering the world, I think we’re a little bit further behind in San Francisco. We’re just now starting to reopen. I have really mixed emotions about going back out in crowds. And I mean, I’m sure you guys are wearing masks and all of that, but how was that transition for you?
So I remember being really afraid of it. I was the person who wouldn’t even order food out during the pandemic because I was terrified that if somebody that cooked my food at Chipotle or wherever, that we could get sick. So I was putting a lot of pressure on myself with the cooking and whatnot. So when things started to open up, I was really scared. And when I first went back to the office, I was terrified. We had had several people come down with the virus, including my own boss, who was with me the day that he left the office with the fever.
So going back was terrifying. And the first couple of weeks, I think I had more anxiety than I can ever remember in my lifetime. But then I realized that if we didn’t just take the precautions and do the things we needed to do, that life was not going to go back to what it needed to be.
So slowly we, at home, at least my husband and I started to eat out more, which I really enjoy doing. I mean, I do love to cook, but after as long as we were at home, I really started eating out and people thought we were crazy because we were eating almost every night. But we were careful. We wore our masks, we washed our hands, we didn’t take chances. And I think it felt good. It felt good to get out of the house. It felt good to see people again and see things returning to normal.
And then when I would see people that weren’t being careful, it would be frustrating because inevitably there will be people who don’t practice the same level of safety as we do. So there’s, again, that balance where you have to you have to respect others and hope that they respect you. So that was the biggest challenge going back out into the world. But things are almost completely open here now. We still are seeing cases here in New York, but life is returning to normal and it’s a good thing. I’ve been vaccinated as of yesterday I have fourteen days post vaccination and I’m not stopping any of my precautions. I think everyone needs to continue to be safe.
Yeah, I like how you put that, though. It’s it’s almost like when you were describing how you slowly started almost like dipping your toe in and it’s like almost like training for something or practicing. It’s like baby steps. You just kind of do a little bit more and a little bit more and like it layered on obviously keeping the precautions and then the comfort level will come. And it’s just I feel so hopeful hearing you say that almost everything is back up and running over there, it really, truly gives me hope that we’re coming out of the tunnel.
Yeah, there have been days where I even (this sounds so crazy to even voice), but that I’ve even forgotten that we’re in the thick of this still.
That’s amazing. that doesn’t sound crazy. That sounds amazing, that’s adaptability at its best is.
But it can be a little frightening. So a few weeks ago, I left my office and I have the back of my class coats and I had some boots and things like that. I had done some cleaning like all of us did what we were stuck at home. And the area that I work in, there are some homeless people that I see from time to time. And this particular day I left the office and as I pulled up to a light that I wait at. One of the guys that I typically see was out there and I was so excited because I had been holding on to these coats and some boots that I knew would fit him. And in my excitement, I opened my window and I frantically waved to him and I said, “oh, come here, come here.” And I wanted to give him some food that I had and and the coats and the boots. And I totally forgot to put my mask on. And, you know, here he is standing at my window and we’re having this conversation and he’s grateful. And I’m so thrilled that I’m able to do something for him that day. And as I drove away, I called my husband and I said, “I’m so glad I saw this gentleman that I had been waiting to see. But I forgot to wear my mask.” And I felt so guilty that I was so worried because he wasn’t wearing a mask. I wasn’t wearing a mask. And I thought, “oh, my gosh, all of these months – over a year now. I’ve been so careful. Now, what if?” So with the comfort, you know, we we still have to remember that that this is still happening.
Yeah, that’s it’s a great story. And I want you to know you’re not alone, so I’ll share something similar. I think it was maybe just ten days ago I was running out of the house to run down to pick up pizza order, trying to support local restaurants, and I was just walking down there to pick up the pizza and bring it home. And I left the house without a mask. I left my house on foot without a mask. And I got two blocks in and there was a dry cleaner and I realized it. I was like, oh, my word. And I hopped into the dry cleaner and I was like, ‘Do you happen to have an extra mask?’ Like, I cannot believe I left my home without a mask. Like, that’s crazy. But I completely hear you. I understand. I relate. And you’re not alone. So it is important that we stay vigilant, but it’s normal to feel this sense of safety and security and slip up. But we can’t beat ourselves up.
No, no, and we were in Florida a few weeks ago getting my son settled into a new place and I did the same thing. I walked out of the condo complex to take my walk and pick something up that I had ordered down the road. And I decided to walk there and I got about halfway there, which was about a mile, and realized I didn’t have a mask. So I saw a Walgreens and I was like, Should I go in? And I not I didn’t know what to do. So I like I was pulling my shirt up over my face and I opened the door and I said to the young guy working behind the counter, like, ‘do you guys have masks? I forgot a mask.’ And he started to laugh. And he was like, you know, he goes, ‘I’m so thrilled that you’re worried about it.’ He goes, ‘Most people that come in without one will actually argue with us about wearing on.’ So he took me over to the section where they were and assured me that I wasn’t the only person that this had happened through. And luckily, in most places you go now, you can buy masks. So, yeah, but apparently it’s happening to a lot of people, so..
We’re totally normal!
Yes!
That’s my takeaway!
Well, Kim, I really appreciate you going out of your comfort zone and talking with me today. I think that your insights are invaluable, your experiences are relatable and the work you’re doing. I thank you. I thank you very much as one of your clients and you help you help so many people and you have so much going on in your life. So I want you to know that I appreciate you and we all appreciate you. Thank you so much.
Oh, thank you. I absolutely love what I do and I love working with people. And gosh, it’s my pleasure. Always.
Thanks for tuning in to Hindsight’s 2020. I hope you leave feeling more connected and able to see your own silver linings. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a few minutes to subscribe rate and review the podcast on iTunes. Special thanks to my sound engineer John Kerr of Wayfare Recording. We can’t do any of this without your support. Follow us on Instagram @hindsights2020podcast and join the conversation at Hindsight’s 2020 podcast on Facebook.
ABOUT KIM KARANT:
You can follow Kim on Instagram @kim.is.all.in
